Myths/Humans cannot change sex - Revision history

Woozle at 21:36, 8 November 2020

2020-11-08T21:36:14Z

Woozle: irrelevancy, not myth

2020-08-27T15:29:24Z

irrelevancy, not myth

Woozle at 13:31, 27 August 2020

2020-08-27T13:31:13Z

Woozle at 23:24, 11 August 2020

2020-08-11T23:24:54Z

Woozle: /* Reality */ "biological sex"

2020-08-03T13:39:48Z

Reality: "biological sex"

Woozle at 00:59, 3 August 2020

2020-08-03T00:59:08Z

Woozle at 20:56, 25 June 2020

2020-06-25T20:56:02Z

Woozle at 16:39, 25 June 2020

2020-06-25T16:39:09Z

Woozle at 13:54, 25 June 2020

2020-06-25T13:54:41Z

Woozle at 13:04, 25 June 2020

2020-06-25T13:04:27Z

@@ Line 39: / Line 39: @@
 * "'''Human biological sex is immutable'''" is a retreat from the older position that biological sex itself is immutable<ref name=tg-2019-12-18 />, which is flatly contradicted by the existence of a number of animal species which change their reproductive functioning over a normal lifetime.
-==See also==
+==Further Reading==
 * HTYP: {{l/htyp|gender/101}}
 * Issuepedia: {{l/ip|gender identity}}, {{l/ip|gender prescriptivism}}, {{l/ip|sex reassignment surgery}}, {{l/ip|transgenderness}}
 ==Footnotes==
 <references>

@@ Line 44: / Line 44: @@
 ==Footnotes==
 <references>
-<ref name=note-steelman>Note that this is a {{l/ip|steel man}}ned version of the claim, which is sometimes phrased as "no mammal can change sex" (same problem in definition, and also why are mammals special, if not purely for {{l/ip|cherry picking}}?) or even "sex is immutable", which is ''obviously'' wrong in that there are many species of animal which do change sex as part of their natural life-cycle. See for example the questionably-titled [https://www.treehugger.com/animals-can-change-their-gender-4869361 11 Animals That Can Change Their Gender]</ref>
+<ref name=note-steelman>Note that this is a {{l/ip|steel man}}ned version of the claim, which is sometimes phrased as "{{l/irrelevant|mammals cannot change sex}}" (same problem in definition, and also why are mammals special, if not purely for {{l/ip|cherry picking}}?) or even "sex is immutable", which is ''obviously'' wrong in that there are many species of animal which do change sex as part of their natural life-cycle. See for example the questionably-titled [https://www.treehugger.com/animals-can-change-their-gender-4869361 11 Animals That Can Change Their Gender]</ref>
 <ref name=tg-2019-12-18>{{l/ip/fl|2019/12/18|Judge rules against researcher who lost job over transgender tweets}} quotes Maya Forstater: "My belief [...] is that sex is a biological fact, and is immutable. There are two sexes, male and female. Men and boys are male. Women and girls are female. It is impossible to change sex. These were until very recently understood as basic facts of life by almost everyone."</ref>
 <ref name=tpd-2018-03-05>{{l/ip/fl|2018/03/05|Sex Change Physically Impossible Psychosocially Unhelpful and Philosophically Misguided}}:

@@ Line 5: / Line 5: @@
 This claim has been expressed in a number of different ways:
 * You cannot change your sex.<ref name=tpd-2018-03-05 /><ref name=tg-2019-12-18 />
-* Human biological sex is immutable.
+* Human biological sex is immutable.<ref name=note-steelman />
 * You cannot change your gender.
 * Sex isn't "assigned" at birth.<ref name=tpd-2018-03-05 />
@@ Line 44: / Line 44: @@
 ==Footnotes==
 <references>
 <ref name=tg-2019-12-18>{{l/ip/fl|2019/12/18|Judge rules against researcher who lost job over transgender tweets}} quotes Maya Forstater: "My belief [...] is that sex is a biological fact, and is immutable. There are two sexes, male and female. Men and boys are male. Women and girls are female. It is impossible to change sex. These were until very recently understood as basic facts of life by almost everyone."</ref>
 <ref name=tpd-2018-03-05>{{l/ip/fl|2018/03/05|Sex Change Physically Impossible Psychosocially Unhelpful and Philosophically Misguided}}:

@@ Line 8: / Line 8: @@
 * You cannot change your gender.
 * Sex isn't "assigned" at birth.<ref name=tpd-2018-03-05 />
 It is typically used as an argument against:

@@ Line 24: / Line 24: @@
 *** something else, then what is that?
 ** If "change" means "reverse" (rather than "in some way alter"), then trans people are certainly not seeking SRS for that reason, as medical technology does not yet permit the transformation of a reproductively-male body into a reproductively-female body, although current progress makes it likely that this will be possible in a matter of decades at most. (One feels compelled to wonder if anti-SRS advocates will stop raising this objection once that happens.)
-* "'''Human biological sex is immutable'''" is either defining "biological sex" to ''specifically'' mean reproductive role, or else is conflating the many aspects of biological sex into one and claiming that none of them can be changed, which is patently false.
+* "'''Human biological sex is immutable'''" is either defining "biological sex" to ''specifically'' mean reproductive role, or else is conflating the many aspects of biological sex into one and claiming that none of them can be changed, which is patently false. (See also: '''[[biological sex]]''')
 * "'''You cannot change your gender'''" is true as stated, and indeed is a fundamental basis of how {{l/ip|gender identity}} works. When transgender people transition, however, they are not attempting to change their gender. They are attempting to alter their body's physical gender (primary and secondary sexual characteristics) to match their gender<ref name=bodymap />. Again we come to the question of "why does it matter if this is true?"
 ** Worse, there's often an implication that a (trans) person whose physical gender is A but who identifies as B is "changing their gender" to B -- when in fact it has been B all along; see {{l/ip|gender identity}}.

@@ Line 30: / Line 30: @@
 * "'''You cannot change your sex'''" is ambiguous in at least a couple of ways, either implying an outright falsehood or implying that SRS has a particular goal which it does not actually have.
 * "'''You cannot change your gender'''" blurs the lines between "sex" and "gender": trans people are not attempting to "change gender", so why argue that it can't be done?
 ===Issue Unclear===
 * "'''You cannot change your sex'''", if taken to mean "you cannot convert a body from one reproductive role to the other", is certainly true within the limits of current medical technology.

@@ Line 15: / Line 15: @@
 *** access to women's bathrooms
 *** competing athletically as women
-* {{l/ip|sex reassignment surgery}} (funding it or sometimes even allowing access to it)
+* {{l/ip|sex reassignment surgery}} (funding it, allowing access to it, and/or providing it<ref name=PMcH-2004-11 />)
 ==Reality==
 These claims tend to ignore or dismiss several decades of scientific discovery in the understanding of sex and gender, while others try to blur the lines between sex and gender. In general, they also focus on one aspect of sex while ignoring the reason that people seek SRS.
@@ Line 51: / Line 51: @@
 * "Transgendered men do not become women, nor do transgendered women become men." (quoting {{l/ip|Paul McHugh}})</ref>
 <ref name=bodymap>or, more precisely, to match their brain's body-map with regard to gender. As with everything relating to gender, preference for one sexual characteristic does not automatically mean preference for all the others, though there is a high correlation.</ref>
 </references>

@@ Line 10: / Line 10: @@
 ==Reality==
 These claims tend to ignore or dismiss several decades of scientific discovery in the understanding of sex and gender, while others try to blur the lines between sex and gender. In general, they also focus on one aspect of sex while ignoring the reason that people seek SRS.
-* "You cannot change your sex." -- this is an ambiguous statement open to multiple interpretations:
+* "'''You cannot change your sex.'''" -- this is an ambiguous statement open to multiple interpretations:
 ** If "your sex" is defined as...
 *** "your biological role in reproduction" (as one myth-source article<ref name=tpd-2018-03-05 /> defines it), then you certainly can do so by means of any operation that renders one sterile. Sterilization is not, however, the only reason transgender people seek SRS; if it were, then mere removal of the gonads (or vasectomy, for male bodies) would suffice.
 *** something else, then what is that?
 ** If "change" means "reverse" (rather than "in some way alter"), then trans people are certainly not seeking SRS for that reason, as medical technology does not yet permit the transformation of a reproductively-male body into a reproductively-female body, although current progress makes it likely that this will be possible in a matter of decades at most. (One feels compelled to wonder if anti-SRS advocates will stop raising this objection once that happens.)
-* "You cannot change your gender" is technically true. When transgender people transition, however, they are not attempting to do this. They are attempting to alter their body's physical gender (primary and secondary sexual characteristics) to match their gender<ref name=bodymap />. Again we come to the question of "why does it matter if this is true?"
+* "'''Human biological sex is immutable'''" is either defining "biological sex" to ''specifically'' mean reproductive role, or else is conflating the many aspects of biological sex into one and claiming that none of them can be changed, which is patently false.
 ** Worse, there's often an implication that a (trans) person whose physical gender is A but who identifies as B is "changing their gender" to B -- when in fact it has been B all along; see {{l/ip|gender identity}}.
-* "Sex isn't "assigned" at birth." may be true, depending on what you mean by "assigned"; see {{l/ip|sex assignment}}.
+* "'''Sex isn't "assigned" at birth.'''" may be true, depending on what you mean by "assigned"; see {{l/ip|sex assignment}}.
 ===Blurring the lines===
-* "You cannot change your sex" is ambiguous in at least a couple of ways, either implying an outright falsehood or implying that SRS has a particular goal which it does not actually have.
+* "'''You cannot change your sex'''" is ambiguous in at least a couple of ways, either implying an outright falsehood or implying that SRS has a particular goal which it does not actually have.
-* "You cannot change your gender" blurs the lines between "sex" and "gender": trans people are not attempting to "change gender", so why argue that it can't be done?
+* "'''You cannot change your gender'''" blurs the lines between "sex" and "gender": trans people are not attempting to "change gender", so why argue that it can't be done?
 ===Issue Unclear===
-* "You cannot change your sex", if taken to mean "you cannot convert a body from one reproductive role to the other", is certainly true within the limits of current medical technology.
+* "'''You cannot change your sex'''", if taken to mean "you cannot convert a body from one reproductive role to the other", is certainly true within the limits of current medical technology.
-* "You cannot change your gender" states a truth that trans advocates do not dispute.
+* "'''You cannot change your gender'''" states a truth that trans advocates strongly support. (If gender could be changed, then transition would probably be unnecessary.)
 If these are the intended interpretations, trans advocates do not dispute them &ndash; so why state them except as {{l/ip|straw man argument}}s? If these are ''not'' the intended interpretations, then how were they supposed to be interpreted? Either way, they should be stated less ambiguously.
 ===Moving Goalposts===
-* "Human biological sex is immutable" is a retreat from the older position that biological sex itself is immutable<ref name=tg-2019-12-18 />, which is flatly contradicted by the existence of a number of animal species which change their reproductive functioning over a normal lifetime.
+* "'''Human biological sex is immutable'''" is a retreat from the older position that biological sex itself is immutable<ref name=tg-2019-12-18 />, which is flatly contradicted by the existence of a number of animal species which change their reproductive functioning over a normal lifetime.
 ==See also==